When Roger Hamley finds Molly distraught over her father's engagement and his abrupt departure, he tells her, "One has always to try to think more of others than of oneself" (121). After the rather tense conversation between Molly and Mrs. Kirkpatrick (the proposition that Molly go back to Ashcombe before the wedding, the cheese incident, the dig about Molly's governess), Molly doesn't find much solace in that remark. She says to Roger, "It will be very dull when I shall have killed myself, as it were, and live only in trying to do, and to be, as other people like" (139).
What do you make of this advice? This early in the novel we see much of Molly's personality and so we can sympathize with her dispair. What do you think it will mean to her? You can, however, also think about the characters in DeFoe and Austen as you look at how many of them should or do heed this advice.
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Because Molly loves her father, she will do as she is asked but won't necessarily like it. After time, I think that she will find having to put others first means losing a sense of self and that will not be something that she will adapt to easily. At first I don't think that Molly truly understands why her father is considering marriage to Mrs. Kirkpatrick and after her tense conversation with Mrs. K., Molly definately isn't looking forward to the union. She is either going to rebel to some degree or conform. In Defoe, Moll Flanders rebels against the norm and fights for her beliefs and desires to get to the station in life where she wants to be. In Austen, Anne is persuaded to end her relationship with Frederick, thinking more of others than herself, never truly being happy with anyone else, in a sense not doing what she wants but what others want. I see, so far, a similarity between Anne and Molly, both women pleasing others, not going for what each of them truly wants. Only Moll Flanders does whatever is necessary to accomplish her needs.
We all have heard that we should try to think of others before ourselves. Indeed, the world would be a wonderful place if everyone actually behaved in that manner. Being the sweet girl that she is, Molly will often think of others first, especially her father. But I do believe, Molly will eventually begin to rebel. For one, Hyacinth is talking about taking cheese from Molly’s father, and a few other enjoyable indulgences that Molly has either shared in or know that her father enjoys. Like the time Molly and her father sat in front of the fire eating cheese bread. Hyacinth will be deserving of Molly’s rebellion for even thinking of making changes so early into a marriage that hasn’t even taken place yet. I mean, who doesn’t like cheese! Hyacinth is a selfish person, and she definitely thinking of herself first.
Anyway, with Defoe, Moll Flanders character is somewhat of a hero in my opinion. She is rebellious, scandalous, and goes after her dreams by any means necessary.
In response to Shelly…
I agree with your assessment of Molly at first. Molly is a very bright young lady in a town full of pretentious people that all seem to have their own agenda of some kind or another. She is already catching on to Hyacinth and has got her number.
But I don’t think Molly will take to kindly to Hyacinth’s plans to make so many changes in her father’s life,-and so quickly. Hyacinth is a little scary to me, and the term "being hit by a mac truck" comes to mind.
I believe Molly will rebel but we will just have to read and see what happens with this new forming family.
To this day we are still told to put others first and as humans it goes against our primal nature to do so. We are selfish creatures by design and I don't think Molly is exempt of this. She will try, as we all do, for some time to be so noble as to put others first all the time. However, there will be a crash. There is always a crash. A backlash and rebellion for having to ignore ones own impulses for so long. Because of the time period she might not rebel like we would think but I do think she'll do something that's unexpected.
I think that Molly is finally breaking out of the mold. It has always been expected of people, mainly women, to do as they are told or do what others want them to do. I'm not saying that this isn't good advice at times. When you truly love someone, you will put their needs before your own; which is what Molly does for her father. However, I don't think this is a set-in-stone rule for people to follow.
For Molly, I think that this advice could cause conflict in the future. Just like Anne in "Persuasian," Molly will not truly be happy if she constantly does what others think is best for her. I could see how some conflict may come up between Molly and Clare when it comes to Mr. Gibson.
Lacie,
I agree with you to a point. Depending on how we are raised will determine how we reacte to situations. I have met unselfish as well as selfish people in my life. Todays society is very selfish, thinking of themselves more than others. But it was not always like that. The majority of people cared more for others than themselves. Sort of like sharing toys when you were younger. But it's like anything else. There will come a time when a person will rebel to some degree and I think that Molly will get to that point. We will find out before class on Thurs.
When Roger tells Molly, "to think more of others than oneself", I believe she already has. Molly has always been daddy's little girl, and I feel she has always put him before her. The fact she has to do it under these circumstances is what's troubling to her. Molly feels betrayed and is hurt by her father's actions. I think what's more troubling to Molly is having to please Mrs. Kirkpatrick for the sake of her father more than anything, she probably feels like she is being pushed aside.
I slightly agree with Roger’s advice, while also believing that one must do what is in their best interest so as not to affect their well-being. When thinking of others you tend to forget about yourself. Self-negligence ends in self-destruction. I uphold the golden rule “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” and interpret its meaning as putting those first who also put others first.
I think Molly will try her best to put others first; however, I don’t see it lasting. I believe she will begin to see how putting others (especially selfish others) first only hurts her in the end.
Defoe’s Moll definitely would not have heeded this advice. Her life was about self-achievement while being selfishly driven. Moll’s own interests impeded the conformity to the wants of others, which contributed to her immorality. Too much self-concern hurts you as well as too little. You must find a balance; one that works.
We can argue all day that Molly had estrogen influence around her growing up (Mrs. Eyre, etc), but there’s nothing like having an actual mother. Since this wasn’t the case, Molly became protective of her pops. I’m going to go ahead and admit that I got a little emotional with her when Mr. Gibson was going “away from her—away from his child—his little daughter—forgetting her own dear, mother” (120). Although I wouldn’t go as far as calling Molly ill-mannered, she never really had the feminine touch around to teach her how to put others before her. She has created a barrier of high voltage, and it’s going to take a lot for anyone unwelcome to break through. I think she will eventually submit to Mrs. K, but all else said, it doesn’t look too pretty thus far.
With the tone of the entire book in mind and seeming that everybody will get what they want, this is a bad attitude to have. The people who have power would never willingly forfeit it, and the people who are gaining power will take all that they can get. Mrs. Kirkpatrick looks forward to her life of ease with Mr. Gibson. If Molly really did live by Roger's advice, she would be surrendering any integrity that she had learned throughout life. If she were to be as other people liked, she would never be herself, she would eventually be the young girl that other people created by their own motives. Thankfully, Molly stands up for herself. She shows a side of herself that was not revealed in the previous chapters. The Narrator said that she "had been once or twice called saucy and impertinent," but in actuality, she never acts that way in any previous passage. Somehow, Molly through her frusturation, learns to stand up for herself and be the person she likes instead of the person that Miss Browning would have.
Molly is strongly attached to her father and he is the only male she really knows. To this point in her life, her father is the only person she truly receives affirmation from even though he is not really emotional. In other words, they understand each other. Molly has never known her father to be with anyone else so she feels like she might be losing him to another woman. I think Molly understands the underlying reasons for the marriage but she doesn't like it and I can't blame her. Much like Moll Flanders, Molly has been allowed to be a free spirit with her life. She doesn't really live under a lot of constraint. Even though Moll Flanders has to find ways to take care of herself, she doesn't live under heavy constraint. For example, Moll is tied down to a job. Even though she sleeps with several people and steals, she does just about anything she wants to like any other free member of society without ever really answering to anybody. Molly is not demanding, but then she is only a teenager. both Moll and Molly rebel in certain ways against the societal norms. Molly doesn't realize she is really rebelling because her father doesn't force societal restrictions upon her. Molly is really a free person.
I think Roger Hamley's heart is in the right place when he gives this advice to Molly, but it's dangerous advice. It's missing a significant piece, and I'm not quite sure how to phrase it, but I believe he should've said something more along the lines of "One should always try consider others above themselves, unless by doing so you are compromising yourself as an independent individual." It's not the greatest phrasing, but I believe it's important that we allow ourselves the right to do what we truly believe is the right thing, so long as we are not intentionally hurting others. We should avoid being selfish while at the same time, we should not let others walk all over us by doing everything we can to please them, especially if it is a lost cause.
Molly doesn't seem like the type that wants to have her desires impeded upon, but at the same time she does not wish to make others unhappy. This is quite a dilemma. The advice that Roger gives her will not serve her well if she heeds to it, unless she recognizes the importance of her own happiness as well. But Molly seems like a smart girl, so one can only assume that she'll know what to do when such an occasion arises where she must decide whether or not it's her own happiness over others'.
In response to cicelyj,
I like how you compared Molly to Moll Flanders. That's a difficult comparison to make, but you did it quite well I think. I'm just curious about your opinion of Roger's advice...
Do you believe it was good advice?
I think this is good advice… if everyone in the world followed it. If everyone was continually looking out for everyone else, then what a happy, magical place the world would be, filled with cotton candy clouds and marmalade rivers. This, however, is not the world we live in. Sure, one should consider other’s feelings before acting, but if no one is doing the same for you, you become a doormat. A prop there for people to use, and use you they will. Again, I’m not saying you should only look out for number one, or that one shouldn’t have any sympathy for anyone else - only that, if only put other’s feeling before your own, you, as Molly said, kill yourself. I think, as the story goes on, Molly will be less inclined to put other’s feelings before hers as other’s feelings continue to contrast her own.
In honor of Valentines day, I agree with everyone. You all make valid points and are all fine, upstanding human beings who deserve all the love and respect this world has to offer. Each one of you is a special little snowflake, each beautiful, each special in your own way. I love you all… and this beer is really good!
Thank you Chuck,
If Molly does take this advice to heart in every single situation she faces, she will become a doormat. And maybe I'm being force-fed all of this feminist rights stuff in all of my classes this semester, but it appears that throughout history, that is exactly what women were expected to be. There is a balance between looking out for yourself and looking out for others. Every situation calls for different reactions. Maybe Elizabeth Gaskell is trying to portray this idea through Molly Gibson.
Claudia, I think it was wonderfully phrased when you spoke of compromising the individual’s independence. We all get consumed in seemingly trivial matters: appearance, perception, and all having to do with the exterior—when in fact, most of our interiors are running on the last ounce of petro. Sometimes we convince ourselves that the way out is allowing to sacrifice ourselves for others. But like the old saying goes, anything in excess can be detrimental. I hope that if Molly adheres to this advice, she won’t let her emotions get the best of her and end up distraught. Then again, I don’t think she has exuded low self-esteem to where this becomes a possibility.
go eat some more Candy-hearts, Chuck
I believe that Roger's advice is sound; however, like anything else in life, a certain degree of balance must be maintained. Putting others' desires and happiness above her own is an honorable act, yet it loses all value when individuality becomes sacrificed. Molly is a people pleaser -- what matters most is the approval of those near to her. Due to this demeanor, she will follow Roger's advice, therefore gratifying both him and father. We all know selfishness to be a negative quality, but considering your own opinion does not always fall into that category. How would anyone ever be his/her own person if all that ever proceeded from the mouth was that that others wanted to hear? How much respect would that person/opinion command? Honesty with self and others is a virtue to be reverenced and desired when mixed with discretion, wisdom and sensitivity. I believe Molly will find this out for herself in the end.
I agree with Claudia's observation that, while Roger's heart and motives were commendable, he was negligant in analyzing the full situation. I believe he already knew Molly to be naive; her dress and manners strongly hinted at this. As one who had travelled so many places and encountered many a soul, Roger knew bending with the breeze and succombing to (peer) pressures led to anything but personal happiness or a life success story. Perhaps he realized there was a balance, but he failed to communicate that balance to Molly.
In response to all,
I agree with all of the responses to this post. Everyone seems to believe in balance, which is a good thing. There really isn't much to add after that. Oh, I also like the phrase "compromising yourself as an individual." Don't let others shape you. Maybe the characters in "Persuasion" could use this advice. LOL
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